Permaculture - How you can use permaculture practices to improve your gardening

In this episode we discuss the rain Minnesota has been dealing with of late, and permaculture - what it is and why it's important.

You can find us on Facebook, and also join the Facebook group.

If you have a gardening question, please email Mary at lewis.mary.e@gmail.com or Liz at liz@greenrootsfarm.org

00:00
Mary, Mary, quite contrary. How does your garden grow? Well, that all depends. But that's not really what this podcast is about. We're here to help you grow your garden. Welcome to Mary and the Master Gardener. Good morning, Liz. How are you on this not raining morning? Well, I'm doing all right. Hoping to get outside a little bit. Yeah, my son was out shifting all the quote unquote

00:28
dry wood to the end of the woodshed toward the wood burning boiler thingy we have for our wood for our furnace this morning because it was just dry enough to get on it because we have wet wood that needs to get moved over there and he was like I'm going to go do it now before it starts raining again. Smart. So why don't we chat about rain and what it is doing to whatever we have planted.

00:57
and why rain is beneficial, but what happens when there's too much.

01:02
Yes.

01:06
So what happens? Yeah, what happens when there's too much? Well, depending on where your plants are located, right? So if they're in a lower lying area coming down off of a hill, you're going to get a lot more water. But depending on how you're able to kind of secure drainage in a way.

01:32
And then maybe doing a little bit of protection too for some plants. Um, like my garden, half of it is kind of underwater right now. So trying to get just some of it is just allowing it to try to rebound naturally.

01:53
But then also making sure that you can put things down on top of it to help with some absorption, but some of it is taking your hits. Yeah, and some of our plants are doing great. Our onions are doing great. I'm guessing that's because onions like water because they need to make that big fat bulb. Right, and there are a lot of water-loving

02:23
plants that will do very well in this, right? So we've got the humidity, we've got a lot of rain, and then we are getting some intense sun when it is not raining. So a lot of perennial flowers love this. All of mine are doing magnificent, but that also means some of the weeds are doing just as well. Yes, gotta love those weeds.

02:52
They don't care. They're gonna grow whether it rains or it suns or it pours or it snows sometimes even. So yeah. Weds are great. Okay, so I know that we have little tomato seedlings in. They've been in for, oh my goodness, at least three weeks and they are pretty much stalled out and they're starting to yellow.

03:19
Does this mean we're gonna lose our tomato plants this year? No, not completely. If they're getting just too much water, if they're just getting too much, but I would start by maybe putting some mulch or something around it. And you can even do some of those, you know, like a, like a clutch to kind of cover them and protect them from some of that direct, that direct rain coming onto it.

03:47
And it'll give it a little bit of protection then from some of the pooling water as well. But take some of the leaves off, if you can, the lowest. That'll help. That'll help it a bit. And then yeah, allowing it to try to get some protection in those places. But I don't think they're lost. I don't think they're lost. Tomatoes like it too. They like the heat. They like the humidity.

04:18
Okay, good. I had looked at the AccuWeather forecast, you know, the long range forecast a week and a half ago. AccuWeather said that a week and a half ago was when all this constant daily rain was going to stop and it was going to get hot and dry. And they lied. I also talked to a lady from the old farmer's almanac on my other podcast weeks ago.

04:45
And I asked her what the forecast was according to the old farmer's almanac for our area. And she said, hot and dry summer. Today or tomorrow. Tomorrow is the first day of summer. Um, I'm hoping that she's correct because this, this daily rain is, is not really great for anybody right now. Yeah. And hopefully there's enough time in between that, that it's able to absorb into the soil, but yeah, it's.

05:15
It is good for plants that are trying to transplant or grow right now, but if it's too much, it's going to drown them. Yeah. Our garden is a part of our business. It is mostly my husband's favorite thing on earth to do, to decompress from work. And so he's going to keep going at it all summer long. He's going to do everything he can to make it go.

05:45
But I'm not going to lie, I'm very happy that the garden is not our sole source of income because I suspect we would not be making a lot of money this year.

05:56
Yeah, I think part of this too is, is, you know, kind of what we talked about in the last episode was like that being able to adapt. So what is kind of coming and then learning, it's a learning curve, right? You're you're learning as you go. I think, you know, things I've done in the past have been like, even put straw down in between to kind of absorb some of that and take it away from away from the plants. Yeah.

06:26
But even though that's not something I generally like to do, I don't like to put, you know, I'll do compost sometimes, but it's, it helps. But, and then figuring out too, like different places to plant that aren't going to be.

06:42
heavily watered. Yeah, where it's not gonna hold the water for as long. Mm-hmm, yep. Yeah, our issue here is that we dig down six to eight inches into beautiful black, healthy soil, and we hit gray clay. So the whole area where we garden is basically a pool if we get massive rain, because that clay doesn't let the water go anywhere. And...

07:11
we're not going to dig out the entire area where the garden is to dig out that clay and then backfill it with good compost and start again. So we're going to adapt and learn and figure it out and it will be okay. In the meantime, our radishes are doing great because radishes love water. The onions are doing fantastic and we have like, I think 200 onions planted. Oh, yummy.

07:40
So people at the farmers market are going to get onions this year and they're going to be gargantuan. So there are some benefits to this, but I know that everyone is concerned about the amount of water that is falling from the sky right now, especially if they are growers. So I thought we should probably hit on that. The actual topic for today's podcast is permaculture and Liz knows all about it. So Liz is going to tell us all about it.

08:10
Yeah, so I wanted to add a little bit on to, you know, what you were talking about with your soil issue. So you don't necessarily need to dig it out and backfill. You can add, so leafy compost is really, really, really good for earthworms. And the earthworms, as that, so as that compost goes down, those earthworms are going to be able to get into that soil and aerate it and create a

08:40
moisture flow, keeping it away from your plants. So that was just one thing I wanted to add while it was in my brain. Okay, before we jump to permaculture then, and that kind of leads into it, what kind of leafy compost, how would we do that? Because we have three huge compost piles right now, but leafy is not something I've heard before. Yeah, so leafy compost is fantastic.

09:10
I save all my leaves, they're incredible nutrient source, and I have a compost pile just of that. And then it can be added at any time. Because if you look at the layers of wet leaves, and I'm sure we've all done this as gardeners at one point, you picked it up, threw it off of something, but you look at those layers of leaves, and you can see in between the layers, it creates a lot of room for oxygen.

09:39
to get down into the soil. And it creates space for worms. And those worms then are gonna create those holes in that clayish soil that you have, and then continue to push those nutrient rich leaves into your soil.

09:59
Okay, all right. That makes sense. Okay, did you have anything else to add about that? Yeah, keep a compost pile just of your leaves if you'd like.

10:11
Okay, cool. I didn't know we could do that. Check box. Oh yeah. Matt, we're good. I don't bag leaves. I only, I will mulch them because that those nutrients are really good for your yard, anything growing.

10:26
Okay, I didn't, I had no idea. See, this is why I love talking to people who do things on a big scale and learn everything about it because I learned so much from you. It makes me so happy. Okay, so. And it saves you time, right? No one likes begging. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yes, that's a great plan. I like that a lot. So we had a question from, I can't remember who it was. I emailed you the question. Do you know who?

10:56
who I sent you the email from. I don't recall, but I can. Oh, I'll look it up. It's fine. I got it. I think. It's gonna be quiet for a minute, guys, because we're both looking at things on our computers.

11:13
I don't have it.

11:18
I just want to read the name of the person who posted on Facebook the question and then the question. Okay. Evan Binsfield asked, some info on permaculture design, specifically tree bush species for cold climate.

11:38
Most of the info that he's finding is on Zone 6 Plus, where they can actually have fruit trees. So actually you can have lovely, lovely fruit trees in Minnesota, in Zone 4, in Zone 5. I have tons of apple trees. I've got plum trees. They grow really well. Some of it is where you're planting.

12:07
and how close together they are. But these are some really good, like Minnesota, right, we know the Honeycrisp Apple. Everybody knows that one. And I have many of those. And those do amazingly well in our zones in Minnesota, even in northern Minnesota, up in the three.

12:38
So, some other species- How many zones are in Minnesota, actually?

12:44
Um, so I believe, you know, we range from three in Northern Minnesota and then I'm down in Southern Minnesota and, and I'm a five, although some, some maps say I'm a four, I'm kind of on that order, but, um, I think we have, we range from those, those three major. I'm not going to look that up to make sure, but. I'm sorry. Oh, no, no, no, no, no problem.

13:15
Okay, so I think creating, you know, permaculture is really, how do we work with the soil that we have? How do we work with the environment that we have without putting in a lot of different plants that aren't from our area, right? So really kind of natural, sustainable planting is what

13:41
I think the question is, or at least what the answer is for permaculture, especially in our shorter growing season. So managing your soil, composting, mulching, cover crops, because cover crops really put a lot of nutrients, structure, make the soil really nice and fertile, and it kind of prevents the erosion too of some of this water that we're getting too. And then harvesting rainwater.

14:12
I think that was another, it's another good practice. I don't water any of my plants from water from my home because I don't want anything that's gone through any kind of pipes. I don't want anything that's gone through a softener, anything like that. I want naturally sourced water, as much as you could get, right? So collecting rainwater, even though this rainwater definitely is pulling the atmospheric

14:42
unhealthy, I would say on the healthy atmosphere into your water, it's still better than likely the water that you're getting from your home. It's just natural.

14:55
Okay. Can we back up just a titch and define what permaculture means? Is it permanent culture? Is that where it's based from? Sure. So permaculture, they're designed to create sustainable, kind of self-sufficient ecosystems, agricultural ecosystems if you're trying to produce.

15:22
But otherwise, it's, you know, you see, if you drive through your neighborhood, I can guarantee that you're gonna find somebody with a permaculture yard, right? So they've got natural plants there that can prevent erosion. They've got natural plants there that just grow in our season. And you'll see those, those are the ones that don't need to be mowed. They've got these big, beautiful flowers and they keep coming back every year.

15:51
And that also helps kind of.

15:56
continue, it helps keep weeds down, it helps create continual feeding for insects, for birds, for all of these species that really kind of, you're not just creating an ecosystem for the soil and the plants, you're creating it for all things that live on it. Okay, yeah, because I mean I have a vague idea of what permaculture means, but not everybody does, so I thought we should probably

16:25
define that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Thank you for that. And then cover crops. I always hear cover crops in relation to big, big operations. Oh yeah, so most people think a big field, right? Yeah, like acres of corn or acres of soybeans or whatever. So if you're talking about a garden like

16:52
hours which is maybe 100 feet by 160 feet. We empty out the garden every fall when it's done. You know we take everything out and my husband tills it and then he puts some of the compost that's been developed over the summer from the big bins that we have and he lets that sit. And we also have chickens so he puts the chicken bedding with the chicken poop on the garden and lets that sit over the wintertime.

17:20
So we don't really do a cover crop. I mean, I suppose we could try a winter rye or something, but then it's covering where we want to plant again in the spring. So when you're talking about cover crops, how would that work for a situation like ours? Would it work at all?

17:44
Yeah, absolutely. So it doesn't have to be, you know, something that you're gonna, it could be something that you could even harvest right in the spring and continue, you know, allowing the farm to produce for you, right. So the big farmers, that's what they do, they're going to plant rye, they'll do winter wheat, there's all kinds of or alfalfa, right? alfalfa is fantastic, especially if you have animals to feed. So or you can sell it.

18:14
So allowing anything that you can kind of put in the soil when you're not utilizing it, and it's a little bit more work, but you're adding, if you think of it as treating your soil as you do in the fall, right? If you're putting that compost in, all of those other things, this would just be an additional step to create soil health and improve the fertility of it.

18:46
It prevents erosion.

18:49
And then you can always, you know, continue to just change crops also, or, you know, if you choose not to, you don't have to. But I think it could be a little bit more challenging too, if you don't have something to harvest it with.

19:08
Yeah, and you know, you really don't smaller farms that don't have. Yeah. So that that can be a bit of a challenge. But if you do have animals, or a way to pull it, you can always just till it in also in the spring, if that's something that

19:26
that is a practice that you do in the spring? We do, we till it in the spring because we have to break it up more than it's already broken up by the earthworms in the dirt. We have lots of earthworms, the chickens absolutely love the earthworms. Oh yeah, that's one of my favorite things to watch. Yeah, we kife a couple and throw them in the run and they lose their mind. It's very, very funny to watch. And honestly, chickens, if you live where you can have chickens, have chickens. They are entertaining as all hell.

19:54
They're great. Oh my goodness, yes. So, okay. So, did you have more you wanted to say about permaculture? I didn't mean to back you up too far, but it's one to hit on things that I didn't know about too. Yeah, no. And so I think the cover crop, even if you plant a cover crop, you decide that you can't harvest it. You can till it in because you're ultimately adding nutrients. You're changing that soil structure, right? So you're talking about clayish soil that you have. It's gonna kind of help break that up.

20:24
and create soil that is going to be able to regulate and conserve moisture in a healthy way. And disperse it in a healthy way because disperse the moisture is the thing we're having trouble with right now. Yeah. And if we want to go to that, right? So going to that subject, I think being able to kind of create like a berm.

20:52
to protect some of your plants that maybe might be getting too much water. That's things that I've done in the past. You know how you you amount different plants, right? So melons, things like that, that you you plant those in amount. You can also do that with some of you know anything else that you have at the garden that you really need to to keep away from that heavy moisture. Malt helps as well. Okay.

21:19
We're going to have to work on that Sunday when it's not raining, because it's going to rain tomorrow and it's going to rain Friday and it's going to rain Saturday. Go fig. I don't mean to sound so pissy about this, but I'm just over it. We need rain to make things grow, but I don't think we need buckets poured over our heads every day. Right. Yeah, I agree. Looking outside and seeing...

21:47
Even my yard flooded. I'm in a flood zone today. And I could look out at the neighbor's field and see Lake Monsanto. It's a little, it's a little troubling. That is so funny because, um, we have a useless garage that sits directly behind our house and there's a cement pad in front of it and every time it really rains, all the water pools in front of that garage and we call it Lake Lewis.

22:14
because my last name is Louis. So yeah, Lake Lonsanto, that's awesome. Okay, so with permaculture, I don't wanna beat a dead horse here, but we have a tree line that borders the left side of our property and the back side of our property. And we have two wild elderberry trees.

22:44
there we have wild plum and we have wild black raspberries and we have not messed with any of those trees because they were here when we got here. They are a natural source of food and we love everything about it. And my question is, because I got distracted by thinking about my tree line, if a wild version of a fruit grows on your land,

23:12
Does that automatically mean that a domesticated or cultivated variety will grow on your land? Not necessarily, right? I have a preference towards organic heirloom varieties, right? And anything that grows naturally, I tend to leave, unless it's something that's going to harm, anything else that I'm growing.

23:42
but you can always add to those too. I would leave them. I have elderberry growing in my grove as well. And I actually just bought yesterday 10 black elderberry plants to add to my farm. Because I love black elderberries. They're so good, so nutritious. But those kind of also, right? So elderberry gets huge. And that also will create kind of a natural windbreak. Because

24:10
Yes, they're they're big, they're leafy. So things tend to grow. Sometimes where they're beneficial for you. Yeah. You can add to those two, right? So you could try putting in a cultivated, you know, apple tree or plum tree, something like that, and see how it does. Because they, you know, apple trees, you need at least two varieties to pollinate. Yep.

24:43
Yep, we have, I think we have eight different varieties of apple tree growing that we've put in. I think it's eight. Oh, that's wonderful. And we have honeycrisp trees. We have two of them that we bought two years ago. And they were saplings when we bought them and they're finally starting to branch out and fluff out with the leaves. So we're hoping against all hope that we might get a few honeycrisp apples.

25:11
not this fall, but the following fall. Oh, yeah, it takes with most trees. I don't recommend people going out and buying giant expensive trees. Because if you have a sapling or you have a giant tree, those first two years, go towards root development. Yes, so it save your money, get yourself a little sapling and you could usually get them especially

25:40
If you're a farmer, through your county programs, there's county programs that offer big tree and shrub sales that are perennial to your area, that are natural to your area. And you can get them in bulk for very good prices. And I recommend putting a lot of those in.

26:05
Yes, and if you don't know how to find that information, I bet the University of Minnesota's Extension Services would probably be able to direct you. Absolutely, and most county, every county website is going to have their, it's usually their soil environmental kind of management program, and that's usually, at least in my county, Blue Earth County, that's where

26:31
that's where you would order it. And I kind of live on the border of Blue Earth and Brown County. And Brown County has their own program. The county my parents farm is in, they have their own. And you'll be able to get the plants that my mother can get are not the same ones that I can get in my area.

26:50
Is it because it's specific to that area? Is that why? Yes. Okay. Okay. Um, we also bought cherry trees and peach trees last year. And my husband brought home a supposedly cold, hardy, sweet cherry tree. And he bought two of the same kind. And

27:16
I figured that cherry trees were like apple trees and that they need another variety so they will pollinate. And I was like, bring me the tag from one of the cherry trees. And he did. And I looked it up to see what other cherry tree we would need to buy to actually get cherries out of these things. And come to find out the best one was the Rainier cherry. That was the one they recommended to use as a cross pollinator.

27:43
I don't know what you know about cherry trees, but Rainier cherry trees are expensive. So we ended up buying a $60 Rainier cherry tree sapling from somewhere, ordered it, it came in, it was healthy, it was fine, and we put it in. All three cherry trees bloomed this spring. I don't think we'll see cherries this spring because I'm assuming they need time to adjust their new environment as well as apple trees do.

28:11
but we're hoping that we'll actually have sweet cherries in a couple of years growing here. Oh, I'm excited for that. I don't have a lot of experience in cherries, cherry trees. I just, that is something though that I would love to learn about. Me too. And faith, oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, all I've known about cherries.

28:40
All I've known about cherries my whole living existence in Minnesota, which is over 30 years now, is that the sour cherries do really well here. I didn't know you could grow a cold hardy cherry.

28:53
So yeah, we'll see. There's a lot of.

28:57
There's a lot of native that do really well and they make insane with crab apples. I want to say that too. There's some varieties of crab apples and most people think like I was crab apple. No, but you can make really, really good jams and jellies with them.

29:18
You don't, it doesn't have to be, you could use a lot of the native species that are growing.

29:24
Yes, and the wonderful thing about Minnesota, okay, I'm glad you said that. The state land that is around us everywhere. We talked with one of the rangers or whatever they're called here. I grew up on the East Coast, so I don't know what the people who patrol our forests are called. But they said that as long as you don't pick any plants from state land.

29:52
as long as you don't cut any plants from state land. You are allowed to harvest any fruit from state land you want to. So if there are wild plums growing and they're ripe and they taste good, you are more than welcome to take plums from state land. Asparagus, asparagus grows wild everywhere in Minnesota. If you want asparagus in the spring, ask anybody if they know of a patch growing somewhere wild.

30:22
Minnesota is one of the best states for foraging that I know of. It is. My daughter loves to go asparagus hunting in the spring. I have an asparagus patch, which I'm grateful for, but she's got these secret spots and mushrooms. So, I love to go look for mushrooms. I have a few species that grow in my own woods.

30:51
love to go look at different spots and I know them in my brain, I can get to them without having to, you know, without having a map, I just go there. And I love looking for morels and different, different fruits that are growing different things that I can harvest and enjoy and then create more out of right, you can, you can keep the spores for morels and create your own. Uh-huh.

31:19
Yep. And you want to collect your morel, any mushrooms actually, in a mesh bag so the spores can get dropped as you're walking out of wherever you picked them from because you want them to propagate. You want them to keep going. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And we have an asparagus patch as well. We have a huge asparagus patch that we put in from crowns when we moved here. And

31:46
some guy pulled it, oh it was the propane dude, the propane guy that brings our propane fuel for our tank. And he saw, it was after they had all done their thing, so there were all these, I don't know what they're called. Asparagus is a grass, so it had gone to seed. And he was talking to my son, and he says, I see you have a very nice asparagus patch. And my son said, yes we do. He said, you know it grows wild all over the place here, right?

32:15
My son was like, yes. He said, you don't have to grow asparagus in your garden. And my son says, well, where are the patches around here? And the guy says, I can't tell you. Yes, that's a good word. My son said, well, that doesn't help us. I think we'll keep growing asparagus because at least we know where this one is. And the guy just laughed. So.

32:39
The reason I tell this story is some people are very, very secretive about their spots. We knew of an apple tree, like it had to have been over 100 years old, on state land up in, I think it was Scott County. And we stumbled on it because we were out driving around, big old apple tree full of beautiful apples. And we went and picked that tree clean because it was state land. We're allowed to pick apples.

33:09
And we did it two years in a row, picked hundreds of pounds of apples, made jelly, made applesauce, froze some for pies. Third year we went back and someone had cut that tree down. I cried, I sobbed. It was our secret tree and then it was gone. So yeah, it's really interesting how you find things and they're a wonderful resource.

33:37
on state property and then it may not be there anymore. Yes, this is true. And I don't know what variety those apples were. The closest I could get in doing my research was called a wealthy variety. Okay. But I have no idea what it really was. They were gorgeous. They were at least the size of my palm, you know, with my fingers wrapped around the outside. They were big

34:07
So anyway, we like that on my farm. When I moved here, there were two trees. One looked like a smaller honey crisp and then one was this massive, huge, like baking apple. And those ones always did just incredibly well, that tree. And I could never figure out what variety it was, but it...

34:34
It still does, produces massive huge apples and I've noticed they're best for baking. Apple crisp, making sauces, things like that. They're fabulous. We're going to have to do an episode just about apples. I agree. Let's do that. Let's put that on the list because I love fall and I love apples and my family actually has a branch that has an orchard in Maine still to this day.

35:03
And we don't really know that branch because my dad's mom passed away when he was two years old and he just didn't have any way to stay in contact with that side of the family. It's a long convoluted story. I don't know why everything happened the way it did. But we know that the bracket apple orchard in, I think it's Lemington, Maine is part of our family tree. So we're going to have to talk about apples on an episode. I think that would be really fun.

35:33
Yes, I agree. Yeah. And I know it's Minnesota, but Minnesota is a big apple growing state, just like Maine is. So I think we could, we could definitely do a deep dive on apples and how to grow them and what it takes and the different root stocks and all that. So yes, I'm going to put that on the list. Okay. So we're at 35 minutes and 41 seconds. I'm trying to keep the episodes to half an hour. So that's it for this one. Okay. Thank you, Liz. Thank you.

36:03
Bye.